Charlie Kirk - Man in the Arena

Philip All right, welcome to All Are Yours. You can now see our faces, and our names are under the faces, so you know who is who.

Sean Wow.

Philip Yes, that’s right. Unless you’re still listening on the audio version — then you have no idea what we’re talking about. And in that case, good on you.

Sean Or what we look like.

Philip Or what we look like. Correct.

But in case you are interested, this is our first — our one and only, we’ll see — video version of All Are Yours. So we are releasing on video.

Sean Yeah. Why? Why?

Philip That’s right. Because Sean apparently does not just have a face for radio, he has a face for video.

Sean A face for text messaging.

Philip That’s right. I have a voice for text messaging.

No, but there are a few different reasons why we thought this was a good idea. Usually we think about things — we try to think about things — before we’re doing something. So we thought about this.

And the primary reason is because we would like there to be more people involved in the conversation that Sean and I are having. We think the most practical way to do that, to invite people into the conversation, would be to have an easier way for Sean and me to record, as opposed to meeting in person and setting up the gear. But if we had something like this, where we could log on, record a video, and then invite a guest into it — we thought that would be more manageable. So that’s probably the primary reason why we’re going this route.

Sean Yeah, it’s not selfish.

Philip Correct. It’s hospitable.

Sean The goal, exactly. Inviting people in. Ironically. Just inviting them in how we like them, which is at a distance.

Philip That’s right. Each one of us is in our comfortable isolated room, and they could be in their room also.

No, but yes — we could do that, I guess, audio only. That might be a little bit more difficult. Or maybe a different kind of hospitable.

Sean That’s so podcasting like three years ago.

Philip Correct. This is —

Sean Audio.

Philip That’s right. This is now.

So, welcome. And if it is for you, again, just audio — if you’re listening to us there, welcome to the same experience. Except sometimes we might be showing something with our hands now, and that you’ll totally be missing out on.

Sean Well, you have legitimate books behind you. I have an off-center door behind me. But I am sitting in the middle of my desk — and actually I have got, they’re not legs, they’re actually drawers on both sides. So the door is not centered in the room, into my little study at home anyway.

So for those who are just on audio, you can imagine that there are cool books behind Philip, and nobody even knows what is behind me.

Philip There you go. All the books are in front of you. Mine are just for show.

Sean I mean, this is true.

Philip But this closet that Sean is in — this is where the magic happens, people. So, whatever kind of magic. But it’s happening there.

Sean Now it’s video magic, right here, right now.

Philip That’s right. So we’ll see how it goes. You could let us know if you like it or not.

Sean So this going to be video means that All Are Yours is now going to have a YouTube channel.

Philip Correct. So welcome to our YouTube channel. That’s what this is. Welcome to the All Are Yours YouTube channel.

Sean Because YouTube is an arena where people put their ideas and their faces, apparently.

Philip That’s right. Exactly right. And that’s where we want to be.

So this episode is about being in the arena. Holding out. Being there.

And maybe to step back — even apart from us, I think we have little arenas, at least for me, that I’m in. There are people in huge arenas doing really big things that are super awesome. And also people who are paying the price for being in those arenas.

So even last week, from the time we’re recording this, Charlie Kirk was murdered, assassinated, killed — being in the arena. And we thought it would be relevant to talk a little bit about that situation, and maybe in particular about Christians being in the arena and what that takes. What kind of approach, what paradigm, should Christians have being in those different spots?

Charlie Kirk in particular was very not just open about his faith, but said that he wanted to be remembered for his courage in the faith. So his approach in the arena was not implicit Christianity. It was out in front, and even preaching the gospel in a very dark place. Universities maybe are not just the place that needs the gospel primarily, but also where a lot of the darkness is coming out of. And so him going there, to the source of darkness, being in that arena as a Christian — I think is definitely something that we could draw from and learn from.

Sean Two pieces. One is: you have loved “The Man in the Arena” by Roosevelt. We’ve actually — you have talked to me about that before. I’m familiar with it. But it’s a thing that you have loved for years.

Philip Yep. That’s right.

Sean So you should say some more about that part in particular. Even that phrase, “man in the arena,” is probably attributed — obviously the arena can go back to the Roman arena and the Christians getting eaten in the Roman Colosseum.

Philip Yeah.

Sean So, potentially even going back that far, “in the arena.” But obviously Roosevelt’s comment — his whole, I don’t even know what to call that. Was that from a speech? Maybe?

Philip It was a speech. Yep.

Sean So you should say more about that, in addition to the fact that you’re a little bit more familiar with Charlie Kirk even than I am, pre-last week. I mean, I knew who he was, maybe watched a few little clips. But give us some more on the arena part, and then Kirk.

Philip Yeah. So, “the man in the arena” — that was a quote, a reference, to Theodore Roosevelt’s speech that he gave April 23rd, 1910, in France.

Sean Uh —

Philip So, in Paris, France, he gave this speech. I found the entire speech, but specifically these couple of paragraphs are something that I keep coming back to. I find it encouraging, especially when I want to get out of the arena, want to throw in the towel, tap out.

I think Theodore Roosevelt — not just in his words; he was a great orator, a great speaker — but also in his life, I think he was in a lot of ways a man worth imitating, being that sort of man in the arena.

So I thought maybe it’d be good even to read these couple of paragraphs.

Sean Read it.

Philip Yeah, there you go. So, this is Teddy Roosevelt, towards the end of his speech:

The poorest way to face life is to face it with a sneer. There are many men who feel a kind of twisted pride in cynicism. There are many who confine themselves to criticism of the way others do what they themselves dare not even attempt. There is no more unhealthy being, no man less worthy of respect, than he who either really holds or feigns to hold an attitude of sneering disbelief toward all that is great and lofty, whether in achievement or in that noble effort which, even if it fails, comes second to achievement.

It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena, whose face is marred by dust and sweat and blood; who strives valiantly; who errs, who comes short again and again, because there is no effort without error and shortcoming; but who does actually strive to do the deeds; who knows great enthusiasms, the great devotions; who spends himself in a worthy cause; who at the best knows in the end the triumph of high achievement, and who at the worst, if he fails, at least fails while daring greatly, so that his place shall never be with those cold and timid souls who neither know victory nor defeat.

So that was Teddy Roosevelt, in April of 1910, in Paris.

Sean And do you know what the context for the speech was? What was he —

Philip I don’t remember the context of the speech. I have those notes; I’d have to find them. But it was some kind of tour, I think, that he was doing there.

So, Teddy Roosevelt — again, being that sort of man — fought a lot of battles. Some of them literal battles, so he was a man of war, and then also political, social. Even in his battles, I probably at this point would find myself on the other side of him on some questions. But that approach of being the man in the arena, as opposed to the man who is criticizing, sneering, disbelieving, who has something to pick at —

Sean On the sidelines. In the cheap seats.

Philip Exactly right.

And I think that is relevant to all of us in whatever situation we’re in, but even particularly as Christians. I think we are tempted to approach questions theoretically, maybe theologically, as opposed to applicably — trying to build something, trying to fight for something, trying to make something work, aiming for that reality.

And I think it’s the Christians, it’s the people who get out of just their theoretical cynicism, criticism, being on the sideline, and actually roll up their sleeves and do the work, building and battling, who make something happen — or who at least then strive towards that.

So I think that’s where the context for that quote is even the title: “Man in the Arena.”

And then specifically for Charlie Kirk — I don’t think I’ve really followed him actively. I would see snippets here and there. But I do admire that approach of being able to put yourself out consistently, continually, and being willing to go into those sorts of battles and fights. Whether you win or lose, but you’re in the battle. And I think that is not easy to do.

So having somebody like that, even from such a young age — Charlie Kirk being out there. Sure, again, there are things that maybe, just like with Teddy Roosevelt, we might not all agree on. And even when you’re young, having to wrestle through things and figure things out. But being the man in the arena, I do think that Charlie Kirk was an example, a very good example, of being that sort of man.

Sean Yeah. If I was watching more videos online, I’m sure I would have watched more of his. Just, my sidelines are different than watching videos.

But my son, totally familiar with Charlie Kirk, is more online like that, and felt a heaviness last week in a different way. It was real to him.

And again, since his assassination last week, more information that I’ve seen come out, trying to follow the story — apparently a lot of people would say that the reason Trump won the election this last time was due to Charlie Kirk, because of the number of young people that actually came out and voted. Historically, young people have not participated in that way. And not only did a bunch of young people, and a bunch of young men, actually vote last year, but they voted for Trump. They voted conservatively, as opposed to the other side.

So a lot of people are giving Charlie Kirk credit for being sort of the tip of the spear in terms of addressing that young group. And he was thirty-one. So he himself was still pretty young. But not just going to the college campuses — apparently being in the arena online, where people are.

Philip Mm-hmm.

Sean Right.

Philip Well, even — the college-age students and even people in their twenties are typically voting left. And Charlie Kirk was maybe the primary, if not one of the only, conservative voices, talking heads, who was actively engaging and inviting that group of people.

Usually, again, the people who are going after those are the university professors, even a lot of the media. That’s kind of the college student, involved in all of that. And historically they’ve typically voted left; conservatives are usually the older group of people.

So he was being effective. Not only was he being in the arena, but he was effectively being in the arena.

Yeah, I heard that as well. I heard that even earlier, post-election — kind of a lot of the rallying effort, both with Trump and Vance, that Charlie Kirk was a part of, kind of leading the spearhead effort there.

Sean Yeah, I learned over this past week that it appears that Vance and Kirk were friends. The vice president has tweeted a few different stories — not just in thanks for Charlie Kirk, but personal stories where Kirk was encouraging Vance to get more involved, to get into the arena even more himself, and trying to give encouragement to Vance even before he was selected to run with Trump for vice president.

So Kirk was busy.

Philip Right.

Sean I was familiar with “man in the arena,” at least that basic idea, more from sports. When I was growing up, that was the kind of phrase that you’d hear — and of course with professional sports, professional athletics, and the media criticism that’s perpetual. There’s always somebody who’s going to be a hero and somebody who’s going to be a goat, and that gives the media a story no matter what. So they’re looking for people who are winning, as long as they’re winning, but then they’re happy to talk about them when they’re failing. They’re happy to be the critics and sneer at how obviously poorly they played, or whatever it was.

That context is not as significant as an actual military context, or even business.

So I think Elon Musk has been described as a man in the arena who’s more than just coming up with ideas. He’s obviously clever. He’s smart. Has lots of ideas. But then actually building rockets and sending them up, and then catching them. Or with Tesla and self-driving — I haven’t been in a car yet that does that, but I’ve seen way more people online talking about how amazing it is than how bad it’s going. And of course even the bad parts are necessary in that process for figuring out how to fix it and make it better.

But Musk is in the arena, in terms of actually trying to make something happen, as opposed to just keeping it in his head. And that is more serious than even athletics — as fun as it is to celebrate or complain or criticize when your team is winning or losing. But in the business world, that’s significant.

Even, I guess, thinking about it in terms of buying Twitter —

Philip Mm-hmm.

Sean That was getting in the arena.

Philip Yeah.

Sean And still, people are saying — I don’t use lots of the other media platforms, but it still seems that people are saying that without X, without Twitter, the other avenues wouldn’t be as free for letting people say what they want to say.

Philip Right. Well, not as free — and even right now, I think there are a lot more crazies on X than there are maybe elsewhere. But also, even during this whole Charlie Kirk thing, a lot of the videos and information that you’re finding on X you’re not going to find anywhere else. You’re not going to see any of that.

Sean Yeah. So that was Musk putting himself out there to make that happen.

And these are challenges. Getting back to what you said about Christians — because even to some extent, you and I talking with each other right now from the comfort of our own baby closets that have some books in them or whatever. There’s a way in which we’re still not satisfied with that, as this is more of — because we’re going to post it. So it will go out there to be criticized.

Philip Mm-hmm.

Sean And they can criticize our faces. They can criticize whatever ideas, whatever lack of intelligence we demonstrate, or whatever intelligence we have that they still disagree with. All those kinds of things. So this is an attempt to do some more getting out there.

Philip Right.

Sean And potentially even, with being able to record like this, to invite some other people on and get sharpened, at least.

But in general, yeah — Christians, and I think probably, ironically, the Bible-loving Christians?

Philip Mm-hmm.

Sean The doctrine people, people who care about truth. At least my experience is that that’s the group that tends to then stay in the head.

Philip Right.

Sean As opposed to get out and do things.

So Charlie Kirk definitely stood out as an example of not trying to be precious about his thoughts, but definitely willing to put them out there — and even listen to what other people were saying too. He seemed to be attentive to what young people are concerned about, what their questions are, even some of what their fears are. So he wasn’t just trying to rally people politically for who to vote for. He was actually trying to give them something objective and true, and even hopeful, for the sake of salvation in Jesus — as opposed to just trying to get them to vote Republican, or even vote for Trump.

Philip Right.

Sean And it turns out that those things currently do have way more overlap. The love of death on the left, whether that’s visible in pursuit of legislation for abortion, or even certain of the minimum wage laws — minimum wage laws actually, ultimately, at the end, get you to more death than they do life and flourishing, even though it sounds good. And “right to choose,” supposedly, that sounds good. But those are all connected, not just politically left — they are connected with unbelief.

And more and more, the guys who talk about “Christ or chaos” — that’s not a joke. That’s not just clever alliteration.

Philip Right.

Sean It sounds good, but it is actually that clearly a battle. So Charlie Kirk’s political comments, or political leanings, were Christian leanings.

Philip Mm-hmm.

Sean And those things go together. But my point in that is: he was taking whatever the doctrine, the truth, the ideas, and he was putting it out there — as opposed to making his book longer.

Philip Right, exactly. Well, and putting it out there to be disagreed with, to be criticized, to be pushed back against.

And yeah, there are different avenues, different fields, different subjects. I do think, like what we’re doing right now, that’s one avenue. Having a blog, or writing, that’s also an avenue.

Sean Tweets.

Philip That’s right. Putting out those tweets.

But there’s a certain kind of challenge of doing that live, in person. And then even live in person with college students who are high on emotions — not always — or high on drugs, maybe, not always as rational as you’d like them to be.

Sean High on life.

Philip That’s right.

Sean They’re high on less good things.

Philip That’s right.

And so there’s a certain kind of challenge there, where you’re putting yourself out front and you have to interact with it right away. This isn’t “you’re going to ship it and then you’re going to get feedback later at some point and you’re going to have time to respond.” This is a boxing match. You’re in the boxing arena, dealing with it that way.

I think that’s a certain kind of approach that also is really easy to criticize when you’re not in that arena. Like, oh, you should have said it this way; or, why did you give in here? But you’re in the boxing match. You’re taking those shots, you’re giving those swings. It’s a lot easier to be that sort of cheap-seat critic, cheap-seat cynic.

So there’s a certain kind of approach that is demanded if you want to be that man in the arena. And again, that’s just one avenue — but expanding that even more broadly, like what you’re talking about: business, building certain things there. Or even Christians being in the political arena, applying their faith to that sort of arena and seeing how that plays out. There are some examples of Christians right now in those places, and they’re trying to make it apply.

And again, we could all be cynics, we could all be critics. And all those people who are in those arenas could be doing it differently and better and more effectively, sure. But again, they’re the ones out there doing it. So I think there’s a certain kind of humility that comes with that.

Even with the examples you’re bringing up of Charlie Kirk being encouraging to other people who are entering the arena, whether that was JD Vance — or I saw a lot of different posts of people who said, “hey, when I started off I got these texts from Charlie: hey, good job, well done, keep going.” That kind of approach. Sure, there’s a personality type, maybe, that does that. But also the person who has taken the hits, taken the shots, and gets back up and knows what that feels like — to get the hit and then keep going — has a different approach to encouraging others to do so as well.

So that’s that. But the other point that you mentioned I think is relevant: Charlie Kirk’s effectiveness. I have seen a lot of posts — I was surprised, actually, how many posts on X, on Twitter, I’ve seen of people saying, “I haven’t been to church for twenty years. I went there this last Sunday.” “My wife and I were debating starting to go to church with our kid; we’re definitely going now.” A lot of this kind of people being driven to faith.

And so even that approach of Charlie not dividing, not compartmentalizing his politics and his faith — but also not using politics as a bait and switch. Making it explicitly connected, and even, when it’s relevant, making it clear that he believes this kind of politics because Jesus is Lord and this is how it makes sense. And then even having explicit gospel messages to people — people have attributed their salvation to Charlie Kirk when he was alive.

I wonder how much more effective maybe even this situation of his murder is, for God to use that to save how many people. So I think him being dead is not even him exiting the arena, in that way, where he is still being utilized even though he is not actually here.

Sean Yeah, I had a little interaction over the weekend with somebody who was irritated that people are paying attention to Charlie Kirk now that he’s dead, who apparently were not paying attention to him when he was alive.

Philip Mm-hmm.

Sean And I thought that, first of all, that was weird. Because if you knew how awesome he was — good on you, and aren’t you excited now that more people are paying attention?

Philip Mm-hmm.

Sean To me, that seems misguided. If what you really want is for people to be paying attention to him, then however they’re paying attention would seem good.

Now, I would like for people to have heard his message, now that I am more aware. Sure. I’d like to have made it so that he could continue on his life with his wife and his kids.

Philip Mm-hmm.

Sean Yeah, so I’m not glad that people are finally paying attention to him now that he’s dead.

Philip Mm-hmm.

Sean And at the same time — when someone believes what they’re saying enough that it puts them in that kind of threatening situation, where some radical, someone who had come to believe significant lies, whatever — Tyler Robinson, and whoever else was feeding him resources or changing his mind, whatever was motivating the actual evil that caused him to fire the shots — that’s because there was something that he hated.

Philip Mm-hmm.

Sean And I think we can be thankful to God for God giving conviction to men who are speaking the kinds of things that would get them hated like that. And when you see someone who has then finished their race maintaining that truth — that is a different level of platform than somebody who’s never faced any criticism, let alone faced those kinds of threats.

So, we’re not the ones who have made the world to work the way that it does. But we pay attention because Jesus died and rose again — and we pay attention because he suffered. And he did that for speaking truth, for demonstrating righteousness. So that’s a story that God keeps telling.

I mean, Charlie Kirk is not the first one murdered since Jesus, obviously. The early Christians — many of them lost their lives, or they had their lives taken, because others hated them for the message that they gave. And they in some cases literally then went into the arena to be entertainment, for other people to watch the animals, lions, whatever, kill them as martyrs, causing them to suffer and then die.

So this is a story that God does tell when he wants.

And I don’t know if this is generally going to be a turning point for our country. I am glad to see the support that has come out.

Philip Mm-hmm.

Sean But there have been some other significant events over the last — in my lifetime, or even since 2020 — that seemed like they would be the kinds of things that would finally wake everybody up.

Philip Mm-hmm.

Sean If this is a thing that continues to gather momentum, that God uses to bring about a bunch of salvations —

Philip Mm-hmm.

Sean — I am going to continue to be thankful for it.

So, could it be actually just God taking one man who was in the arena, who was willing to put himself in position to die? Obviously Charlie Kirk didn’t go take his chair on the stage that day thinking that he was going to die. And yet he knew people don’t like him.

So if God would use that to grant great revival — not just in the United States; it seems like there have been other countries where there have been rallies celebrating what Charlie Kirk stood for.

Philip Mm-hmm.

Sean And of course, the number of people that that has continued to make more angry —

Philip Right.

Sean — who are celebrating that he is dead —

Philip Right.

Sean — means that we actually are still in an arena. The battle is continuing.

Philip Right. So, whether or not Charlie Kirk’s death is going to be the turning point for Americans to wake up — that will not happen, I think, if more people, and particularly more Christians, don’t get into the arena. Again, whether it is —

Sean If we say, “ah, well, he already did it.”

Philip Correct.

Sean “And so we’ll just ride his story.”

Philip Correct.

Sean “And be quiet.”

Philip Right, exactly.

And again, whether that’s politics, where he was more so involved in rallying people in that political message, or business, or other arenas where we are needed to build and to battle, both to advance and to defend — there isn’t going to be any sort of turning point if more of us don’t put ourselves out there, if more of us don’t get over our precious nature, or whatever it is, and get into the arena.

So maybe on that: what would you say — why aren’t more Christians in the arena? What is keeping them back? What keeps people from putting themselves out there, from getting out there, speaking out, doing, building, doing the thing that needs to be done? Why do we have more critics and cynics than we do people actually in the fight?

Sean Yeah, I thought this was only going to be like an hour-long podcast.

Philip You give an outline.

Sean Yeah. Well, one thing about criticism is it gives you the feeling that you’re doing something.

Philip Mm-hmm.

Sean There’s like some almost cathartic — but it’s a counterfeit. It’s a counterfeit catharsis. A feeling of good, like getting the toxins out. Criticism allows one to deceive himself into thinking that he’s actually saying something really valuable and important.

And not that there isn’t constructive criticism. Not that we don’t get feedback from negative things. But just complaining about other things makes us feel like we’re doing something.

And I guess — I don’t know. Would I rather have someone who is just perpetually complaining, or someone who is just perpetually complacent? This is actually a really good question. I’m not sure. Can you turn the energy of the constant complainer? Can you just redirect the energy? Or what? I’m not sure.

Philip Yeah. They might be equally bad.

Sean Yeah. We definitely have a bunch of people who don’t care very deeply.

Philip Mm-hmm.

Sean And we definitely have people who — it makes them feel good to complain. And I think to some extent, complainers are rewarded in our culture. Criticism is a job. The talking heads on TV, on news kind of stations and things like that — aren’t they? They sell things by telling how bad other things are.

Philip Mm-hmm.

Sean So I think maybe we don’t go into the arena because we think we are in the arena, because we’re complaining.

Philip Mm-hmm.

Sean We don’t go into the arena because we are cowards, or we’re afraid. And whether we’re afraid of — or we’re afraid of losing esteem. Probably most of us in the United States weren’t actually afraid of losing our lives. Obviously there are Christians in other parts of the world even today where it wouldn’t be as surprising if they were hunted down.

Philip Yeah.

Sean Part of the Charlie Kirk assassination that is so shocking is that we don’t generally have murder in public, for a guy who’s just talking.

Philip Right.

Sean Usually you don’t have that.

Philip Right.

Sean In our situation.

So generally, Christians probably are not afraid of losing their lives, but they’re maybe afraid of losing their jobs. This is why some people are anonymous on Twitter — or, I guess, is anybody anonymous on Facebook, maybe? Instagram?

And this isn’t a complaint about anonymous accounts. It’s just: if they genuinely think they could lose their jobs, they would rather just not talk. Or, obviously, anonymous accounts allow them to make a lot of comments.

But yeah, it’s just easier to not care. You and I have talked about care —

Philip Mm-hmm.

Sean — a lot. We would talk to our kids about caring. We talk to our young people at church and school about their level of affections.

Philip Right.

Sean And man, it’s just so easy to be on the surface, to find distractions — and even things that are relatively nice distractions. It’s not like they’re evil entertainments per se.

Philip Right.

Sean But we’re just kind of soothed into drifting. And that is way easier than putting yourself out there for people to criticize you.

Philip Right.

Sean We can hide.

Philip Mm-hmm.

Sean Well, we can hide easier from a keyboard. Again, in this sense, we’re going to put this out there, and obviously people can make comments on the keyboard back at us and complain or whatever. And that would be fine. I’m ready to learn more things. I’m trying to be not defensive.

If we ever get to a spot where we can go to a place and host some sort of debate, or invite other people to come and ask questions, those kinds of things —

Philip Mm-hmm.

Sean — for that. I mean, we have plenty of opportunities to have conversations with people who are unhappy. Generally those aren’t with a bunch of committed, unbelieving, or even God-hating liberal kind of people; most of my settings don’t include that kind of thing. But if and when I would have opportunity to do that, I’d like to be ready, courageous, bold.

And that means I can’t just do and seek whatever is comfortable in all the places. But that’s clearly the easier path for Christians.

Philip Right. Yeah.

Even the complaining part could be a way to maybe make yourself feel better for being a coward, or for being complacent. Like, well — it’s too much work to actually build something, to go out there and do something. Or it’s scary. And so, like what you’re saying, it feels productive, feels like you are doing something, just by complaining. And a lot of times the loudest cynic maybe is even the most afraid, or the most uninvolved.

Like I said, it seems like it’s true that the more in the arena you are, and even the more intense that your arena is, the more humble and understanding you are toward other people in their arenas. And so I think complaining masks some of that. You’re able to get away from it. You’re able to hide.

Sean It’s tough. Because it depends — are we talking about a business, a product, a service? Are we talking about a law, where we’re lobbying for a particular kind of law to be made, or for a particular justice to be done? Mindshare, like in a culture kind of thing?

Because the wickedness does require being called out. Even yesterday I was referencing at church the proverb that says that the fear of the Lord is the hatred of evil. And then there’s a psalm lyric, I think Psalm 97: “O you who love the Lord, hate evil.” So, hating evil, which is required for wisdom and apparently required for worship, for singing, and for the fear of the Lord and walking that way.

So that sounds like being pretty clear and even aggressive in pointing it out, and fighting it.

Philip Right.

Sean And I’m not sure how many Christians are good at fighting without fussing.

Philip Mm-hmm.

Sean Good at being clear without sneering.

I mean, there is a kind of laughing that the Lord does against the wicked, who think that they can accomplish their purposes, or that God is not even paying attention. There is a kind of laughing. But even that kind of laughing is not a sneering, and it’s not from the sidelines.

Philip Right.

Sean So as we’re trying to think about, and then even try to disciple our kids, try to disciple our grandkids, try to encourage and build up the flock — to be clear and to be combative in the right way, without just being satisfied being critical.

And maybe that’s where, if there’s no building that’s taking place alongside of the battling —

Philip Mm-hmm.

Sean — if there’s no community of people who you’re connected with, so that it’s clear that you’re fighting with them, you’re fighting for them, on their behalf — as opposed to “everybody is an idiot.”

Philip Right.

Sean “Nobody gets it.”

Well, yeah, it is not something that Christians have apparently learned to do very well. And you’d think after 2,000 years we would be better at it collectively.

Philip Yeah.

Sean So, even our little flock in Marysville — we’re working hard to build up the right muscles in the right places. And in a lot of cases, even for us, we are trying to wake up muscles that have been relatively dormant. And the examples that we see mostly online, I think, are largely either just rabid examples of rage, in the name of conservative things —

Philip Mm-hmm.

Sean — or quiet people.

Philip Right. Well, even your point about hatred — to hate evil. For hate to be immature, whether it’s immature because it’s weak, it’s not as strong as it should be, or it’s immature because it’s fussy — it’s weak in that way.

And then the flip side of that is to love: to love good, to love what is true and good and beautiful. So both of those things, weak love and weak hatred, directed toward the right objects, the proper, appropriate objects, is a type of complacency, like what you mentioned before. It’s because we don’t care enough.

We don’t care enough about the true, good, and beautiful in order to love it strongly and deeply. We don’t care enough about the true, good, and beautiful in order to hate when those things are perverted and twisted and despised. We don’t care enough about those things.

And so, to be able to cultivate the right kind of care — but care for what is good, not just care to hate. So what we hate is when good is maligned. What we hate is when good is twisted.

And even again, coming back to Charlie Kirk: he did have a very positive vision. His whole Turning Point USA — his approach, his vision, the foundation’s purpose there was not about destroying communists, or throwing down the Democrats, or whatever that is. He was promoting a love for America as a nation. He says kind of the top three things that he was getting out there are that America is the greatest nation on earth; the Constitution is the greatest governing document ever written; and free-market economics is the greatest system. So he is promoting this positive vision. He really loves these things, and that’s what keeps coming out of it.

And I think even that approach of fighting without being fussy is when our focus, what’s driving us, is the thing that we love — as opposed to being driven by a negative message, or just the thing that we hate. Where, again: this is the thing I’m after, this is what I want to promote, this is what I love. And then when things are attacking this thing that I love, I’m defending it, I’m fighting against them, I’m hating it. But the hating of the evil is in response to the thing that I love being under attack, where the main vision, the main promotion, the main care, is still the love.

And I think that’s where even — where we want our focus to be is on building. On building something great, caring enough to advance it. And then in that building effort, we battle, because there are obstacles, there are things that get in the way, there are people, organizations, who are trying to destroy the thing that we’re building. So then we are battling there. But the battle is in response to what we’re building being under attack.

I think some of that approach maybe changes the way we fight, or changes why we fight.

Sean Or just letting other people do it for us.

Philip Correct. Yeah, while we sneer at them. Exactly right.

Sean So what arenas are we going to go enter? Are we going to get in trouble for —

Philip You mean me and you?

Sean Sure, yeah. Here we are.

Philip That’s right. Or Christians in general?

Sean You can answer whichever one you want to answer.

Philip Yeah. I think there are more arenas that I want to get into than I’m currently in, or currently able to —

Sean Some that are already on your spreadsheet.

Philip Correct. That are needed to get into.

But in particular, I guess our focus, and what we really want to do, is build out our local environment — specifically our city, Marysville. The arena of Marysville, and seeing the lordship of Christ advanced, the lordship of Christ proclaimed, heralded, in the arenas within Marysville.

I thought about this a few years back: okay, what if you could direct all the energy, all the effort, of going broad into a very specific local target point? If you were to direct the skills, the competence, all of that pursuit into one specific area — as opposed to throwing a bunch of little stones along the wall, connecting it all together and nailing it into one specific point.

I think Doug Wilson had that point in Rules for Reformers, about the concentration of effort. Maybe that’s what he called it. But: concentration of effort in our own lives and our own approach. Specifically for us, we’re after Marysville. We want to take Marysville for Jesus, in that way.

And I think the center point, the starting point, is our church — the church. That is where we are naming the lordship of Christ, we’re proclaiming the lordship of Christ every Sunday, in that way. And then out of that worship, out of that center, is where we’re trying to go further in.

So what we’re trying to encourage, advance, build regarding even business, regarding politics in our city — we have a few people in our congregation who are involved in that and wanting to promote that more. And that is super awesome, and we want more of that. So there are a good amount of arenas within Marysville for us to be in, whether we’re winning or whether we’re losing — but for us to be in those arenas.

Sean Yeah. I think continuing to try to figure out ways in which to expand influence — some people don’t like talking about it in terms of having more power. But influence is a kind of power.

Philip Right.

Sean So if I wanted people to think a particular way and I worked to persuade them, well, that’s a persuasive influence, a persuasive power.

Philip Right.

Sean So sure, we want the truth of Jesus Christ to be the powerful thing. We want God’s surpassing power to be visible, not our human fleshly wisdom or our fleshly power. But there is a kind of responsibility we have, in terms of image-bearing responsibility, in terms of Great Commission kind of responsibility, to proclaim that Christ actually owns all of it. That that’s the only way that all are ours in the first place.

Philip Right.

Sean Because we’re Christ’s, and Christ is God’s, and God made all the things. So we get them because they are God’s. And to be good stewards of them, to be good representatives of the Lord, means that we push that beyond just our heads.

We try to make sure that there’s integrity within our own homes and families, yes. But then we’re also looking for that to expand into the network of families, into obviously a local church flock — but even as flocks, who confess the same Lord, as they are able to do things together, perhaps. As we have businesses, as we have education, as we consider how we can even encourage, if not become, politicians.

I’m not trying to become a politician. But like you said, we had a gentleman in our church who at least ran for city council, and started late in the race, apparently. And still came in third. They took the top two from the primary to get on the ballot; he was at least third, which was impressive in a big race.

But all that to say — yeah, helping our people understand that that’s valuable.

Philip Right.

Sean And that it is right to do more than just —

Philip Right, exactly right.

Yeah, I mean — is power a virtue? Is might a virtue? I don’t know if I would call it that. Is it a good?

Sean Well, what’s the proverb? He who is wise increases strength.

Philip Mm-hmm. Right.

Sean That’s probably not just in terms of weightlifting.

Philip Right.

Sean He who is wise makes sure he can hit his squat PR.

Philip Right.

Sean Strength of resources — and again, in order to do what?

Philip Right, exactly right.

Sean Yeah. In order to bless people’s lives, in order to represent what is right.

Philip Right.

Sean And push out evil.

Philip Right. Well, and — virtue, not virtue — I do think it’s godly, in the sense that God is powerful. God has power. So it is an attribute of God. And if we are to image him in that way — sure, evil also has power, but it’s power corrupted, power twisted, power directed toward the wrong end, power for harm as opposed to for good. But I think the source of that is still God.

And so for Christians to be afraid of power because it’s dangerous — yes, it is dangerous, the same way that a lot of godly, good things are dangerous. They’re not safe, but they’re good.

Sean Wine is not safe.

Philip Right.

Sean But it’s good.

Philip Right, exactly. As —

Sean — well. Is not safe.

Philip Correct.

Sean But it is good.

Philip Yeah, exactly right.

And then the other part of it, apart from it being godly: Christ gives us the motivation to seek to have authority. So, like in his parable of the minas, the reward, the carrot, that he puts there is to have authority over ten cities. “Well done. You’ve stewarded this well, you brought a return. Now you’re going to rule over ten cities.”

So that sort of — to rule, to have authority, in that sense of power that you can manifest for the good — is a carrot that Jesus gives to his people to encourage them to strive after. And so again, that doesn’t seem like a neutral thing. It doesn’t seem like authority there is just a neutral that can be used for good or bad. It seems like its essence is good. It can be twisted, it could be perverted, but the essence of authority there is a good thing.

And so, going after that, wanting to have that sort of influence. And even what you mentioned — even if you lose, even if you fail. Going back to Teddy Roosevelt’s quote at the end there: well, then you know what defeat feels like. But if you don’t even go for it, you don’t know what defeat feels like. You’re a cold and timid soul, he says. Or you might know what victory feels like.

And that’s where — I don’t like the phrase “sleep like a Calvinist, work like an Arminian.” Sleep like a Calvinist, or work like a Calvinist. If God wills, you might actually win. So go for it. Get in that arena. And if you do lose, that’s only for your good. God gives you that assurance that he will be glorified no matter what. And for those who love him, all things work together for good.

So you have no real loss there. Either it is a dead end, and you’re going to fail and you’re going to learn from it and get better — or you might actually win. So go for it. So: sleep like a Calvinist, or work like a Calvinist. Get in that arena and do it.

Sean Said by a committed dispensationalist.

Philip A dispensationalist statement. That’s right.

Yeah, soon it’ll be: sleep like a dispensationalist, work like a dispensationalist.

Sean Not just sitting around waiting in our bunkers for the rapture.

Philip Correct, exactly right. Well, again — because the things of earth are real. They matter. They’re not just symbols pointing us to something else. These things matter. So, here and now.

Sean Yeah.

Philip That’s right.

Sean So here we are. We are about ready to enter the video arena.

Philip Mm-hmm.

Sean And if this gets successfully uploaded, et cetera, then we’re one step closer to entering the arena of maybe having some other people —

Philip Correct.

Sean — join us.

Philip There you go. So you could pray for that, look forward to that. We’ll see what we could make happen. But maybe you’ll see three heads instead of two. Or at least three.

Sean Amen.

Philip All right. All are yours. Out.